noble-zone ([info]noble_zone) wrote,
@ 2008-06-03 12:05:00
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D&D 4e -- my thoughts part 1
Due to advanced pdf technology and the kind heart of some geek in the print-chain at Wizards of the Coast who probably doesn't have his job anymore, I ran 4e off of the 3 core books last nite.

I need more involvement in the game before a final opinion (hence the "part 1" above) but I do have some comments about it.

First off, let it be known I haven't run anything called Dungeons & Dragons (Advanced or otherwise) in over 25 years. I played it as a kid for a while and then turned my back on it. I never found it all that fun and, importantly, it didn't make much sense to me. If I became interested in a D&D setting, I played it using another rules-set altogether. I played 3e a few years ago but the DM threw out the majority of the rules so I never got much experience with the actual system with him. I had other DMs eventually (damn, it's weird typing "DM" but it actually applies here) and, frankly, the rules-fest, rules-referencing feeling of full-bore 3/3.5e was fairly craptacular.

D&D 4e is very encounter based as a means of progressing characters and these encounters are entirely battle-map based. You will be fighting an uphill struggle if you don't use a battle-mat or some other grid map to show spacing. Seriously, it wil be very difficult to coherently describe the scene given the amount of information that needs to flow between participants.

All that tactical play, however, results from the large amount of powers and abilities that characters and their opponents can bring to bear on the battlefield. The rules are explained *very well* and the encounter mini-game replicates a fast-moving, board-game and minis experience. If you're looking for that, this game delivers. It's fun to play and fun to run; I wasn't house-ruling anything and playing with every rule presented and it still ran pretty quickly given our brief read-through of the rules and nascent experience with 4e. Play was dynamic with many options for both players and DMs to take; also, the old-fashioned "sit back and wait for your turn" style of play has been abolished; game play is very back and forth as you can interrupt other turns for a variety of reasons (powers, combat options, etc.)

I'm looking forward to improvising an encounter at our next 4e try-out to see how easy or how hard it is; improvising is my default style of play -- I don't have encounters planned usually -- but the clearly presented rules and the excellence of the core book Monster Manual write-ups would seem to lend itself to putting an encounter together on the fly.

I'm also looking forward to running a skill challenge which, as it reads, is part Duel of Wits from Burning Wheel, part Extended Contests from HeroQuest, part Bringing Down the Pain from Shadow of Yesterday. Skill challenges in combat are even trickier but any D&D rules system that let's you use bluff skill while fighting in order to get a combat advantage is a big plus in my opinion.

Reports that 4e is very close to being a story game are hogwash -- 4e's default premise is kill things and take their stuff and game mechanics in between encounters supports no particular style of game -- but I can see that 4e hasn't been designed in a vacuum. Then again, all that talk about 4e being a video game is nonsense as well. 4e characters are more kick-ass, their powers more dynamic and battles more fantasy-gonzo-exciting than 3e. As long as the folks involved with playing the game (either as PCs or as a DM) are imaginative and want to tell a participant-inclusive story, there's no video game here.

Is it my favorite fantasy rpg system ever? Nah. Did I want it to be? I couldn't really care. I'm not trying to validate D&D in any way and I have no agenda to resurrect my childhood gaming experiences. I think a lot of people trying to find the ultimate system will judge it according to absolutes. I won't be giving up Heroquest rpg or Fate 3 or Adventure, etc., to play 4e exclusively. If, however, you're looking for a game that has sandbox-style roleplay punctuated by a high-power tactical encounter mini-game, it seems as though this game will pop for you. If you're looking for In a Wicked Age with more strategy, move on. One thing is for certain -- if "fun" is defined by exciting and coherent game play, 4e is funner than any previous edition of that venerable beast called Dungeons & Dragons.

Part 2 next week.



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[info]wyldelf
2008-06-03 11:26 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the advanced review.

"I played it as a kid for a while and then turned my back on it. I never found it all that fun and, importantly, it didn't make much sense to me."

Palladium fanboy.

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[info]noble_zone
2008-06-03 11:29 pm UTC (link)
>Palladium fanboy.

YES!

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[info]goreblade
2008-06-04 09:03 pm UTC (link)
For those of us who gamed in the early 80s, there were three major routes people went if AD&D didn't do it for them. You did AD&D with Arduin blended house rules, RuneQuest or Palladium Fantasy. Of course, there were other Fantasy RPGs like T&T and Rolemaster, but those three were my impression of where most people went. I was big into Arduin because I loved the gonzo and our local club had GMs who ran RQ or PF pretty exclusively. As teens, Arduin and Palladium Fantasy trumped RQ because those two made you even gave you more Kewl Powerz than AD&D whereas RQ gave you chopped off limbs.

On the Kewl Powerz front, D&D 4e certainly compares well to Exalted for the gonzo. I never thought I would abandon OD&D with my house rules for any new version of D&D, but I have to say that 4e utterly rocks for high fantasy with tactical skirmish gameplay. Its an awesome blend of the Descent / HeroQuest / Warhammer Quest boardgames with a very free form RPG for non-combat challenges.

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[info]noble_zone
2008-06-04 10:53 pm UTC (link)
I never met anyone who played Arduin. Maybe that was a Bay area thing as was Runequest since you grew up in Chaosium's backyard; I saw RQ at the hobby store as a kid but it didn't seem to sell all that well.

For the southeast Michigan area, it seemed that Rolemaster was a big deal and certainly Palladium since that was Kevin's backyard.

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[info]wtimmins
2008-06-05 01:27 pm UTC (link)
Me, I hated pre-3e D&D. I jumped to GURPS and CoC. Heh.

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[info]el_pinko_grande
2008-06-04 02:26 am UTC (link)
Did you deal with chargen? If so, how did you and the players like it? Was it flexible enough for them?

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[info]noble_zone
2008-06-04 04:52 pm UTC (link)
We did deal with it. It was flexible up to a point; it's very dissuasive of going beyond your class, allowing you to dabble in other classes through feats. We pushed the system with regards to char gen creating a PC ogre and a "high born" human type (thing Aragorn) with celestial powers as well as more traditional tiefling warlock. There wasn't house-ruling going on but educated guessing to make the ogre and high-born similar to the versions that we had been gaming with already (Dawnforge setting using True20).

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[info]wtimmins
2008-06-04 04:33 am UTC (link)
I'm a little surprised that you're aiding the big evils of piracy... what gives?

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[info]noble_zone
2008-06-04 07:03 am UTC (link)
I've pre-ordered the books onlline -- they should arrive next Wednesday.

I don't think I'm aiding piracy because I'm not offering them or making them available and I'm purchasing the print copies. Sadly, the pdfs I have are of very high quality and text is searchable/selectable. I say sadly because I'm sure that more than a few folks will not bother to buy the books with such superior pdfs floating around out there. I wish WotC would release pdfs of these games sooner rather than later. Having the books in electronic form will certainly help me run the game and I'm already cutting and pasting game text into a local wiki on my laptop; I'm sure others would do the same.

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[info]wtimmins
2008-06-04 12:07 pm UTC (link)
Here's hoping. I got feedback on enworld from WotC folks saying that pdfs are definitely in the works... but it sounds like a timescale of months from now, at least, and no details have been offered.

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[info]goreblade
2008-06-04 09:14 pm UTC (link)
It is really lame in 2008 to not have PDFs ready on your book release date. If Luke Crane and all the other one dude publishing houses can do it, so can WotC.

I doubt the leaked PDFs will have a net negative effect on their sales. Books are still more useful than PDFs. For every person who won't buy the books because of the leak, there is someone who was on the fence who will now buy the books after skimming the docs.

Plus, there would have been a wandering PDF within 48 hours anyway. That's just the nature of digitized media these days. If George and Steven can't keep Indy 4 safe for 24 hours, how can anyone expect to fight the current reality? I am not saying it's right or moral or whatever, I am just saying it is the current reality.

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[info]armadillo_king
2008-06-04 03:44 pm UTC (link)
I'm looking forward to improvising an encounter at our next 4e try-out to see how easy or how hard it is; improvising is my default style of play -- I don't have encounters planned usually -- but the clearly presented rules and the excellence of the core book Monster Manual write-ups would seem to lend itself to putting an encounter together on the fly.

Be sure to check out Mearls' column on how to update encounters from Keep on the Borderlands and The Steading of the Hill Giant Chief to 4e (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080530a). The discussion of TSHGC includes some interesting ideas on skill challenges and improvisation. The discussion of KotB includes a very nice Lvl 5 Trap that should come in useful.

Like you, I'm looking forward to see how flexible 4e will be.

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[info]noble_zone
2008-06-04 04:57 pm UTC (link)
Oh, great link. Thanks! I especially dig Mearls talking about using the defeats as a measure of readiness of adversaries; this gives all sorts of great ideas on how to measure success in non-combat encounters.

Skill challenges are an odd thing for me since I'm not sure how to run them. The DMG gives quite a bit of advice on how to construct them but I'm still wondering how actually to present them to the players. That is, it feels like the DM should hint toward skills necessary to complete the challenge rather than tell the players outright; it seems more like a fun bit of back and forth and more fun than simply reciting a list of skills necessary.

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[info]armadillo_king
2008-06-04 05:03 pm UTC (link)
I especially dig Mearls talking about using the defeats as a measure of readiness of adversaries; this gives all sorts of great ideas on how to measure success in non-combat encounters.

Yeah. In retrospect, it seems so head-smackingly obvious. It is an excellent way to handle Stealth checks. It also seems like a port from Thief, Metal Gear Solid, and other stealth CRPGs, which isn't bad at all.

Now, if they just have some advice on how to run Stealth for groups.

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[info]zibacco
2008-06-06 08:11 pm UTC (link)
I just ordered the book off of Amazon. The piracy thread above guilted me into it ;)

And now that I think about it, didn't we already do a skill check? During that combat when it was down to the two cloaked guys and they were right next to each other, I used bluff to get comabat advantage so I could backstab. Rolled the d20 and everything.

Or were you thinking more of a non-combat scenario?

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[info]noble_zone
2008-06-06 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Skill check, yes. I was referring to a skill challenge which is like a series of linked tests to get past some obstacle -- finding the secret, illusion-covered entrance into the mountain lair, convince the king and his court of your intentions, finding the whereabouts and then tracking down the brigands hiding out in a town, etc. There's a certain amount of successes and failures that go along with the skill challenge and give it some degree of narrative "shape".

There was talk on one forum about running a combat encounter as a skill challenge rather than the back-and-forth round by round combat exchange. That sounds cool and I'd like to try that at our next game.

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[info]zibacco
2008-06-06 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Oh..of course. The skill challenge combat sounds cool, too. Looking forward to it.

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